He's Barack Obama's first biographer. But journalist David Mendell doesn't expect his 2007 book to land a spot in Obama's presidential library.

I'm Charlie Meyerson. Wherever you live, odds are good your town is filled with fascinating people who have great stories to tell. I'm lucky enough that the newspaper publisher in my town, Oak Park, Illinois—the Wednesday Journal—invites me to host onstage conversations with some of the fascinating people who live or have lived here. This time out, it's Dave Mendell, one of my former colleagues at another newspaper, the Chicago Tribune. We barely exchanged hellos back then, though, because he was so involved in the stories you're about to hear: His time covering Obama's ascendance to the U.S. Senate —his rise, as Dave's book title puts it, from Promise to Power.

So set back and listen as we ALL learn more about Dave's adventures—including why Mrs. Obama isn't so crazy about the book. Here's the way it went, November 20, 2019, at Dominican University in River Forest:

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That's journalist David Mendell, author of the first Barack Obama biography, Obama: From Promise to Power. I'm Charlie Meyerson—and this has been another Chicago Public Square podcast. More at Podcasts.ChicagoPublicSquare.com.

Here's a rough transcript of the audio:

David Mendell 2019-11-20

[00:00:00] Charlie Meyerson: [00:00:00] He's Barack Obama's first biographer, but journalist David Mendell doesn't expect his 2007 book to land a spot in Obama's presidential library. 

[00:00:08] David Mendell: [00:00:08] Probably the big thing is Michelle didn't care for it because, uh, uh, you know, I wrote about their marriage. 

[00:00:13] Charlie Meyerson: [00:00:13] I'm Charlie Myerson. Wherever you live, odds are good. Your town is filled with fascinating people who have great stories to tell. I'm lucky enough, the newspaper publisher in my town, Oak park, Illinois. The Wednesday journal invites me to host onstage conversations with some of the fascinating people who live or have lived here this time out. It's Dave Mendell, one of my former colleagues at another newspaper, the Chicago Tribune. We barely exchanged hellos back then though, because he was so involved in the stories you're about to hear his time covering Obama's ascendance to the U S Senate. His rise as Dave's book title puts it from promise to power. So sit back and listen as we all learn more about Dave's adventures, including why Mrs.

[00:00:58] Obama isn't so crazy [00:01:00] about the book. Here's the way it went. November 20th, 2019 at Dominican university in River Forest. I aim not to read the books of authors that I interview because I see myself as an advocate for the audience, audience members who in many cases. May also not have read the book. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole on page 27 you say this. In this case, I had an extra incentive not to read your book, Dave, partly because you and I lived some of it together in our time at the Chicago Tribune, partly because I just didn't have the stomach to read. Now in 2019. About a promising and intelligent young politicians rise to power because now you know what? Darn it. [00:02:00] Once I started, I couldn't stop. 

[00:02:03] David Mendell: [00:02:03] That was my goal. And so here we are. 

[00:02:06] Charlie Meyerson: [00:02:06] Take us back. If you would do your first encounter 

[00:02:11] David Mendell: [00:02:11] with 

[00:02:11] Charlie Meyerson: [00:02:11] relatively young Barack Obama. Around 2000. Right? 

[00:02:17] David Mendell: [00:02:17] Right. The first, uh, the first time I encountered him, uh, I was just working a weekend shift at the Tribune and I hadn't been assigned to him at any innate depth. He was running against Bobby Rush. And that was a pretty ill-fated, uh, experience for him. And I had to go to a, uh, it was in Hyde park. He was holding, he was running against rush for Congress and he held a press conference about prescription drug, uh, something, some, he was unveiling his prescription drug proposal and. It did not go so well for him because this has meant when he, his campaign was plummeting [00:03:00] and he was under criticism for staying in Hawaii, uh, during his, uh, every, every December, he and Michelle and the family would go to Hawaii and there was a bill before the state Senate, the safe neighborhoods act. It was a huge gun control measure, and it was. Touch and go, whether it would pass. And it lost by about four votes. And Obama was in Hawaii and did not cast, did not cast a vote. So he was that the Tribune editorial board. Everybody was coming at him. And so we get to the press conference and he. Just, nobody asked him one question about the health care bill, and he just looked like a failing politician. He was, he, you know, he was dying on stage with every, with every question. And, um, I thought he handled the fallout is as best he could. But at that [00:04:00] point. He didn't look like a guy who was going anywhere. He was on the, on the way out, if anything, he still was a very active state Senator. But here was his big moment to try to, to, to go to Congress, and he picked the wrong race. And, uh, that was my first, um, it was my first encounter with him. So it wasn't like I saw this guy and said, Oh, he's going somewhere. It was more, uh, it was quite the opposite 

[00:04:27] Charlie Meyerson: [00:04:27] summer of 2003. You were trying to avoid an assignment that in retrospect would change your life? 

[00:04:34] David Mendell: [00:04:34] Oh yeah. I did not want to cover the democratic Senate race. I did everything I could to try. Not the way the Tribune was structured, I was, um, I was a general assignment reporter. Uh, and I was a very capable guy. I was, I thought I was on the rise and I, he was, I can attest to that. And I was, they liked me and I, I wanted to be, I wanted to write about. Urban affairs, but, [00:05:00] uh, and I was working my way in, in that area to, to write about poverty in the neighborhoods in Chicago. They just fascinated me. But Rick Pearson, who was the political editor, they figured out that I had known him. I knew a little bit about politics. I'd covered politics in Ohio. And so they needed somebody to cover this Senate race that. Um, it had all these candidates and, and I just said, Oh my God, this is a dog of an assignment. This is the worst thing ever. I'm going to have to do a profile on all five of these people. And it's the Senate race. It's not, the mayor's race is not the governor's race. I'm never going to be near the front page, but if I screw up and I get beat on something by one of the other publications, it's going to look bad on me. I said, there's no upside and a big downside to this assignment. Plus, you know. Covered writing five profiles and these candidates are working at night and on weekends. I'm not, I had a young family. I'm never going to see my family, so I did [00:06:00] everything I could to avoid this. This, I would jump behind, like I'd see Rick Pearson and I would jump behind a Coke machines thinking maybe he will forget I exist. But, uh, uh, no such luck. Um, when the memo came out of who's assigned where and, and I, I got, I was stuck with it. But it's one of those things in life that you know, you think is. Terrible for you, but actually works out in your favor. 

[00:06:24] Charlie Meyerson: [00:06:24] How did your impressions of of Barack Obama evolve from those first encounters until your latest encounter? 

[00:06:33] David Mendell: [00:06:33] Well, w we had the strangest relationship. Uh, I mean, he was, what I would say he's, he was my lab rat. You know, he was my subject. I was constantly following this guy around and watching his every move and listening to everything he had to say. And you know, he who wants somebody tailing them around, listening to everything they have to say. Uh, so we had a bizarre. [00:07:00] We had a relationship that probably wasn't healthy, and I tried to manage it as best I could, but my job, I said, you know, I would say my job is to follow you everywhere you go. And, um, he, he would shake his head and say, okay, and uh, but, um, my first impressions of him, um, well, I obviously I knew his resume. I knew he was a highly intelligent guy, and that was clear from, from the get go that he was. A very, uh, well studied, prepared. Um, there's nobody more disciplined that I've ever met than, than, than Obama. Um, but it was a, it was a, you know, it was a different relationship than, than any two people could possibly have. Um, uh, the one, like, you know, I remember we were out on the campaign trail once. In Southern Illinois and there I said, you know, this guy is so tired of seeing me. I am [00:08:00] just going to melt into the background for two days. He is not going to see me at all. And this was when he had won. He was running for the, the U S Senate and things were going his way, but he was on this long. But Michelle was not at all happy with him. Because he had been running for office for the last three years or so. So I said, I am going to be, he's not going to see me for the next two days. I'm going to be following him around. So we're in Quincy, I think it was Quincy, and the river is in the background and he's giving a speech and before he's about to give a speech before everybody, and Michelle is there. And so I say, I'm going to stand behind them about 15 feet. And so they don't see me and he's got his arm around Michelle and he's trying to, uh, uh, you know, just be affectionate toward her. And she was having none of it. She was mad at him. She didn't want to be on this trip. And it's, for whatever [00:09:00] reason, he decides, I'm going to look behind me to see who, who might be watching me. Touch my wife on the side or on the backside or what, and he turns backward. And there I am. How are you doing? You know? And this I know he had to think in that moment, can, can, I cannot go anywhere where this guy isn't there. So, um. You know, I don't know if I answered your question, but, uh, when I think of Obama and my impressions of him are so solid, but I, I think of the, you know, the strange relationship that, that he and I had his sub, his biographer, subject and, and, and candidate. 

[00:09:39] Charlie Meyerson: [00:09:39] Well, reading your book, uh, I kept thinking of Cameron Crowe's 

[00:09:43] David Mendell: [00:09:43] autobiographical 

[00:09:44] Charlie Meyerson: [00:09:44] movie, almost famous, 

[00:09:46] David Mendell: [00:09:46] great movie. And 

[00:09:47] Charlie Meyerson: [00:09:47] it's about journalism in a lot of ways. What is life like for reporters? Who were attached so intimately to a candidate that it can feel like you're a [00:10:00] member of the band, but the band that views you as Cameron Crowe put it as the enemy. 

[00:10:05] David Mendell: [00:10:05] Well, the band didn't view me as the enemy until my book came out. Then I was the enemy because I wrote things that they didn't, uh, that they weren't completely comfortable with 

[00:10:18] Charlie Meyerson: [00:10:18] the book, but not the reporting along the 

[00:10:19] David Mendell: [00:10:19] way to the book. Well, we had our disputes along the way. I wrote a piece, I wrote a piece on a Sunday when he went, Obama traveled to Iowa and, uh, he gave a really poor speech and he knew it. And, uh, everyone around him knew it. The, the Iowa, they just ate him up. He was at this point where, you know, he could recite a nursery rhyme and people were infatuated with him. And I wrote a piece in the Sunday perspective section that said, he, uh. Maybe this guy needs a little more seasoning if he's actually going to look for higher office. And he didn't take well to it, and he, next time I saw him, he said, you're taking all these jabs at me in the [00:11:00] newspaper. So there were, there were, you know, there's, there's a tension there, but, um, your, my job wasn't to be, you know, his best friend, and it wasn't to be his, you know, uh, advisor, uh, it was to. Analyze what went and tell the public who this guy is. Um,  what was fortunate, I think were, we lose this a little bit today because I don't think we have as many reporters with those kinds of relationships, uh, with candidates or with, uh, athletes or whoever's in there. So cut off from us. Um, even in the last 10 years. But I got a pretty good sense of, I think, who the guy really was by, you know, being, being, so being right there all the time. 

[00:11:48] Charlie Meyerson: [00:11:48] Is it hard not to feel like you are a member of the team and not to, for instance, offer feedback or advice along the way before you write your story or complete your book? 

[00:11:59] David Mendell: [00:11:59] Sure. I mean, [00:12:00] there were times I knew more than the AIDS did, and that was. Problematic  at the beginning, Obama could not, he was terrible at giving a speech that was written for him. He would, he just would, it sounded like he was reading something and typically he was very bored with it. And so, uh, I remember the first time Robert Gibbs came in and all of a sudden Washington showed up. He had all these local people, and then he became, he won the primary in Illinois. And then all these Washington people. Uh, you know, join the campaign cause he's running for the U S Senate and they don't want to lose this office. They sent some good people, some good Washington hands to, to come work for him. Even though I remember him saying, Oh, this campaign is not going to go Washington not going to go Washington at all. And then sure enough, I said, who early is Washington? People around? All of a sudden he didn't even, he was sort of naive as to what was coming. But he's reading this speech and age, [00:13:00] just terrible. You know, he's just, he's got the audience falling asleep and afterward, you know, Robert Gibbs says, come sidles up to me. And I said, as you can see, he doesn't read other people's work very well. You should just hand him notes. And just because he speaks so well, you know, by himself. So I guess, you know, I'm offering a tip, but not that. Gibbs wasn't going to figure that out because he was like, I thought I had this great star and this guy just, you know, laid an egg, uh, delivering, uh, trying to try to give this speech. He also wasn't, he just wasn't good at. Reading somebody else's. I think half the time he was reading it and saying, boy, I would never write this. This is just terrible. Why would I write this? Why? Why am I reading this? And so it was better off. And I remember Gibbs said, Hey, I think I'm just going to let him write his own speeches from now on. I said, you're probably better off that way. 

[00:13:56] Charlie Meyerson: [00:13:56] The number of people you've, you've mentioned a couple so far with [00:14:00] supporting roles in this story of Barack Obama. Um, Rahm Emanuel's in your book. Have become increasingly prominent since then. David Axelrod and other guests in this series whose art of all of those supporting characters has surprised 

[00:14:17] David Mendell: [00:14:17] you the most? Tommy Vietor. Anybody know? Pod save America? Anybody a pod? It's a podcast that the audience nods. Yeah, it's sorta right. It's a, it's a huge podcast. On the left. Tommy V tour was just this young kid who was just trying to. He had been kicked, uh, the Edwards campaign, uh, imploded. And so he, he was sort of a cast away. So they put him over on Obama's campaign. He became my driver. Essentially, they decided, you know, we shouldn't have this reporter sitting next to our candidate, cause I was in the back seat all the time until he, until he won the primary. I was just the guy, I was the guy sitting in the back seat and I would hear his phone calls with his wife, you know, [00:15:00] and just 

[00:15:00] to 

[00:15:00] Charlie Meyerson: [00:15:00] clarify, we talked with the Senate 

[00:15:01] David Mendell: [00:15:01] primary Senate primary, not the president. So, you know, now that wasn't a completely different beast. Um, but, uh, Vituro was just this kid who, uh, but he wound up being a spokesman for, I think it wasn't the Homeland security, but, uh, one of the major departments you want. And I, it was sort of like seeing your little brother, you know, get this huge job and he's still, you still seem as like your little brother. And, uh, so, um, Tommy has done very well for himself. 

[00:15:32] Charlie Meyerson: [00:15:32] You write at length about a speech that at least at one point, Obama considered one of his best 2000 to address about the U S invasion of Iraq. What made that so significant? 

[00:15:46] David Mendell: [00:15:46] Well, that was the gift that kept on giving to Obama, and there was a lot of. Push back on how I, what I wrote about that, uh, how I wrote about that. He  if you take yourself all the way back, we're [00:16:00] about to invade Iraq and, uh, Obama gets a call from, uh, Betty Lou Saltzman, who was a very prominent fundraiser, liberal fundraiser in the city, and she says, I want you to speak at this anti-war rally. We're going to have an antiwar rally. And Obama, she said she had spoke, she'd known him privately and donated to his campaigns, and she knew he was very anti war, so she calls him and asked for him to speak, and he decided he has to decide, am I going to give this speech or not? And he, he dawdled a few days on it. And I wrote about the fact that he, you know, he.  didn't know whether he should do it politically, take a stand against the war or not. And, uh, the, when he was running for the presidency, uh, Xsara challenged, uh, uh, my reporting on [00:17:00] it and said he was from that on that from the beginning because they didn't want him to seem like he ever thought. Maybe I shouldn't come out against the war. I was always in favor of it because that was the thing that distinguished him from Hillary, and that was, in my opinion, there wasn't anything that that, that pushed that, that helped him more than that speech. He came out and he gave a great, it was a terrific speech. Uh, he said, you know, this is the wrong war. He said, I don't, I'm not a pacifist. I, and it was, to me, it was, it was also a little, a bit of a brave speech because he was talking to a group of. Folks who were there were there a lot of pacifists in the audience who just didn't believe in any war. And he said, I don't. He says, there are some Wars we need to fight, but this is the wrong one. And, uh, uh, so that's, uh, so when my book came out and I reported that, uh, the reporting was that he, he had thought about this as a political calculation. And, uh. Uh, and some of his advisors told him, [00:18:00] look, you gotta you have to go give this speech because you need to win the liberals and you can't tick off Betty Lou Saltzman, who is a huge backer of yours. So, uh, he decided politically it was the right move. And, uh, but he also believed in what he said. He didn't disbelieve what he was saying. So, um. Uh, there was a lot of pushback after because they were worried that, you know, he needed to look pure and clean as an at the antiwar guy. And he didn't need to look like he was a politician making a decision. Is this going to help me? Is this not going to help me? And so, uh, there was a lot of, uh, pushback after after that 

[00:18:42] Charlie Meyerson: [00:18:42] you made the point that that speech, I believe, came to fit or perhaps already fit a pattern that Obama would use in many of his speeches. 

[00:18:50] David Mendell: [00:18:50] That was what, you know, that was what impressed you as a journalist because he, he didn't always play to the crowd. There were times he'd be downstate and he would, he would always mention [00:19:00] God. And which was a good thing to do in a, in a, in a speech to folks downstate. But he would sometimes, uh, you know, mentioned gay rights or something. And, and. And it as, as, uh, it made you feel, uh, it made me feel watching him that, that he had a little bit of courage that maybe some other politicians didn't have any, he had a sense of, he seemed more authentic, uh, at times that he would actually give you an opinion that maybe not everybody in the crowd, uh, agreed with. But he was so masterful at, um. You know, giving that opinion and not alienating the other side. Uh, and that's, um, you know, making it seem like, well, this is what I feel. You may be right, but this is what I feel it was, was his message. And, you know, Americans were looking for that, uh, at that point in time. That was the kind of guy that, that really played well, when he, when he hit the national stage. 

[00:19:55] Charlie Meyerson: [00:19:55] You lift the curtain at one point on Obama's inner dialogue [00:20:00] in a scene that I, I was gripped by where you ask him what he thought of. Then mayor Daley's well over budget plans for Chicago's millennium park, and he answers, if I told you how I really felt, I'd be committing political suicide right in front of you. What did that encounter say about Obama? And ultimately his career. 

[00:20:25] David Mendell: [00:20:25] Well, what it said in the moment was in a, Hey, he said that off the record too, by the way. He said, look, off the record, if I, if I give you what I really feel about this, 

[00:20:37] Charlie Meyerson: [00:20:37] uh, well, how did he get, how did it get on the record? Then. 

[00:20:40] David Mendell: [00:20:40] Uh, I talked to him later and I said, look, some of the things that we, we've said, you know, we're going to make it into my book. You realize that. And, um, uh, he said, I said, when you're running for president there, you know, th th some of the thumb is the off the record stuff is an off the record. And, and, uh, there were no negotiations, [00:21:00] um, that, that, that went over. I just told him that, and I'm sure there were a few things. Probably that one, uh, he wasn't crazy about, but, uh. I mean, I didn't have, it was one of those where he said, off the record, but I didn't agree to it either. I mean, usually you have to have it given. Sure. He said off the record and then he said it. 

[00:21:19] Charlie Meyerson: [00:21:19] Um, I derailed you though. So what did, what did, 

[00:21:22] David Mendell: [00:21:22] what it said is that he, you know, it, it was, it told you that he was, uh, at that point I realized he was a savvy politician. Um. You didn't know where he was going. He was just, he was running fourth or fifth in that Senate race at that point. And I could tell it in a, told me that, you know, he didn't, he didn't want to lie to me. He didn't want to give me some stage dancer, but he didn't, he didn't want to insult my intelligence and give me some, you know. So for me, it was a good, it was very polished that he could make a sort of, he was trying to [00:22:00] make some sort of connection in that way, but then he did give me the stage dancer, uh, after that, which was something like, look, you know, I have a huge district and the mayor has to Dole out money to, you know, I would love to have that money in my district. Uh, for the, for, for, there's people really hurting in my district, but the city has its priorities and that kind of thing. But, uh, what my question, it was a very good question because it was a killer. Uh, you know, you know, the answer was going to be difficult. And I said, look, you've been talking to me for the last. 15 minutes about the underprivileged in your district and how you weep for the children who don't have enough, uh, who are underprivileged and aren't getting enough resources and you can't bring resources. I said, but you look out the window. We're building a $500 million park and this is your district. I said, how do you square those two things wouldn't, wouldn't you like some of that money into your district in art? Why don't you speak out against the mayor, I think is how I put it. And he, he said, well, that would be political suicide. 

[00:23:01] [00:23:00] Charlie Meyerson: [00:23:01] How much of a problem in your estimation over the course of his career was or is Obama's willingness? To be honest, on occasion, 

[00:23:13] David Mendell: [00:23:13] he certainly was more deft as when he ran for president. He wasn't. Uh, I don't think he was dishonest in his campaign, but there were, there were moments where he said things that were uncomfortable. I think gay rights, for instance, I think he ardently believes in gay rights, but he didn't want to go that far with it, but he didn't want to, he didn't want to lose middle certain segments of middle America. Um, he could have been much stronger on that issue. And I know that he probably felt much stronger on that issue. So. I, I think, uh, his honesty, I mean, I found him in personal situations with me to be, you know, exceptionally honest. I didn't find the guy lying to me really much on anything [00:24:00] cause AIDS would, his AIDS would, uh, like, like, uh, there was an instance where I wrote a piece about how he sent out a mailer from w on his state Senate station area or state. It was purely printed up by us on a state Senate stuff. Um. Uh, paperwork. And it shouldn't go out on that. It should be, you know, it should be from your campaign. And he got all, you know, he calls me up and, um, I remember him driving down the Eisenhower, uh, and I'm on, I'm on a stick shift trying to talk to him and have drive, um, managing the stick shift and a cup of coffee and trying to talk to him. And I said, look, this thing violates the spirit of the law. And he said. Well, how do you mean that? You know, you're just trying to take a shot at me in the paper? And I said, no. I said, I didn't say you violated the law. He said, I did everything. And boy above board it was legal. And I said, well, yeah, but it sort of violates the spirit of a law that in fact, he had written, um, where you can't send out this campaign literature within [00:25:00] two weeks of, of a filing period or something like that. And, uh. So he eventually says, well, you know what? You're right. You're right about that. I don't know why those guys sent that out at this time. He said, I, I w the campaign screwed up. So then I get axle rod calling me up like two hours later, all over me about the story. And I said, well, your guy just admitted two hours ago that. You guys screwed up and he said, he said, what? I said, I said, do you want me to read the quote to you? He said, you're, you're right. He said, you know, I shouldn't have done this. I didn't think. He said, he said, Oh, and I S and I said, it sounds like you've got an honest guy on your hands here. And he said, yeah, sometimes that's a real problem too. One of the recurring 

[00:25:44] Charlie Meyerson: [00:25:44] themes in your narrative is Obama's appeal to women. And the tension that that created in his life. 

[00:25:56] David Mendell: [00:25:56] Oh yeah. Uh, yeah. Michelle was none [00:26:00] too pleased that he would go to the East man club and work average at some point when he's, when he. Uh, won the primary, and he blew up into you starting to blow up around Illinois as he, as he would around the world, or, um, and he became this sex symbol to women. I mean, he would go to a Manson and he would complain that he would get so squeezed in and women would be touching him and grabbing him in places that he didn't really care to be grabbed. Uh, and, uh, it got back to Michelle that he was at the East bank club. And, uh. Two women had said, let's go watch, Oh, Barack Obama workout, and this got back to her, and she was none too pleased. She's, she was thinking, what is this? You know, I'm, I know my husband is in politics, but I didn't think it would, you know, I didn't think it would happen. Turn into this. And so we were on the campaign trail once and there was a, she, [00:27:00] she hops in the car. She's none, none too pleased that the poor guy's going, you know, uh, he's, he was constantly juggling this family career thing. Not that a lot of us haven't. Run into that, but here was this guy who's all of a sudden shot out on a can out of a cannon, and he becomes this huge star, and he's got to tend to that, but yet he's got this family at home that. With two little girls and a wife who's never seeing him. So he had to manage that. And it was, it wasn't always pretty the way he, the way he did it. Um, and I think Michelle writes about that in her book that, you know, they went, went to counseling for a time. And anyway, we're on this, uh, event and we in, I get in the back of the vehicle and she sits down and she has this political cartoon in her hand, and it said, um, uh. Married? Uh, uh, no, it said, uh, married Carrie lust for Obama. And she just, she [00:28:00] was, you know, she said, this is what I have to contend with on a daily basis and just drops it down. And, and so he was constantly, you know, he, while he's mr calm, cool, collected and performed so well. In public, he had, did have this turmoil, not, I don't want to say turmoil because Michelle was supportive of him in a million ways, but he did have this tension and this part of his life, uh, as he became more and more famous, and he had to manage that and manage, uh, also manage a campaign and try to try to keep his career moving forward. So it was a, um, you know, it was an, and here I am, you know, knowing all of this and, and a little too close to it. So, uh. Uh, probably for everybody's sake. 

[00:28:46] Charlie Meyerson: [00:28:46] Speaking of, to close another subplot is Obama's struggle with tobacco. What did you know and when did you know it? 

[00:28:56] David Mendell: [00:28:56] Yeah. That this is [00:29:00] the thing that he most, uh, is most embarrassed about and his tobacco addiction and his smoking addiction is the thing that he. You know, he tried to hide from everybody. I mean, we've got a president now has tried to hide, I don't know if he's tried to hide having dalliances with porn stars, but, so this seems like very like nothing, you know, uh, the fact that the guy smokes. But to him it was a great sign of weakness. His own weakness, he tried to kick the habit, has never was able to do it. Uh, but I knew early on that he was a smoker because I got in the car. Uh, they actually came by Oak park here and they were campaigning somewhere around here. And his driver grabbed me and I went with him the rest of the day, and I got in the car and Obama wasn't in the car and it smelled like smoke. And I said to the driver, Mike, I said, Mike, do you smoke? Mike says, no. Okay, so it was, it's in your round, a smoker, you [00:30:00] know.  they can't hide it much, but it was very difficult. Um. Cause I also learned that he didn't want one. One reason he didn't want me around was that he knew that at some point maybe I was going to have to write about this. And it was just something he didn't want to show off to the world. He tried to conceal it. It was the only thing that he really did work really hard at, uh, keeping it, keeping them from all of you. Um, but I, and I, I, I really, uh. Wondered, how am I going to handle this? Because, because at the end of the year, I had to write a big profile about him, and certainly the fact that he smokes was part of that and I thought, geez, you know, I'm going to have to out this guy's smoking. Is he gonna say, uh, and I'm going to have to keep covering him afterwards. I said, this is going to be a dicey situation, but I caught a break in that the. Sun times did their profile a week before the Tribune. And [00:31:00] Michelle talked to the reporter Scott for Nick for the sun times and told him, and she outed him because she wanted him to quit. So her, her whole, uh, she decided I'm going to out him in public and I'm going to shame him into giving up this awful habit that we all hate. And, uh, so she outed him the week before. I did. There, one of the smoking stories. I have others. 

[00:31:26] Charlie Meyerson: [00:31:26] Give us one more. 

[00:31:28] David Mendell: [00:31:28] Well, that brings me back to, brings me back to Tommy Vituro, the little runt, uh, of a guy. Uh, I was driving, we were, uh, going through the cornfields of, of Illinois and, uh, in Obama's, in the car in front of us. And it's. Gotta be maybe midnight or so. We just come from a campaign event and his campaign staff had booked him at the, at an event like two hours away, and he was really pissed off about that. We all work because we were like, why are we driving two hours at this? It was a terrible scheduling, but we're driving through these cornfields and it's really dark [00:32:00] at night and, uh, in, in front of us, Obama's in front of us. And you see these little orbs of, of. Orange fly out of the vehicle from the passenger side. And Tommy just keeps looking at me like, Oh cause he doesn't know that at this point in Tommy was new to the campaign and he was, he didn't know that. I knew that Obama smoked and they were still trying to hide this. And these things are flying out. And Tommy, every time one of them flies out. And also at this point. Obama has said that he, he smoked one or two cigarettes on the campaign trail. Well, he was pop, you know, he must just chain one after another, just coming out. I mean, the things are coming out and hitting the cornfield. And I'm wondering is like, one of these, one of these fields is going to go up in flames. But, uh, so, so Tommy keeps looking at me and I, and I finally, I turned to Tommy and I said, Tommy, you know, I know that. Barack smokes. And he says, Oh, you do? And then I see. I said, yeah. I said, I've known it for some times. Like, well, as long as he knows that I you, I didn't think of, [00:33:00] you know, that I didn't, wasn't the one who, who, uh, let you know this. And, uh, so that's, uh, that's where Tommy was in, uh, in, in, he winds up being a. You know, a big kahuna in Washington. For awhile it was went from being the kid who was scared to death that he was going to get in trouble by the, by the teacher to being the spokesman for the Homeland security department. 

[00:33:27] Charlie Meyerson: [00:33:27] What happened or didn't happen during Obama's rise to power that would have played out differently 

[00:33:34] David Mendell: [00:33:34] if 

[00:33:34] Charlie Meyerson: [00:33:34] social media had been then what it is now. The 

[00:33:39] David Mendell: [00:33:39] folks on the internet, to his credit, he gave them a lot of attention early on. I remember the daily cause, uh, wrote a piece that was very critical of him for being too centrist because the folks on the left were starting to learn, maybe this guy isn't the flaming liberal [00:34:00] in isn't going to change the world at that we, that we thought so. Uh. They wrote something that, uh, was, was, and I don't remember the substance of it or the policy matter, but it was quite critical of, of him. And he called up the, the head of the daily cause and talked to him and gave him as much, he treated him as seriously as he would treat the Chicago Tribune. So Obama, I think intrinsically knew early on that the internet was a place that. He knew, and this, this was a, his AIDS didn't tell him to do this, and he wound up writing a piece back for them. Uh, you know, that, that explained his position, uh, these days. I don't know. You know, he got eaten up by the birther stuff and I'd eaten up, but the birther stuff, uh, the Trump pushed early on that I'm sure that would have caught even more fire. [00:35:00] If the internet is what it is now back then, but they use the internet so skillfully. His people used it brilliantly. I mean, they had, they put up these images of him, they, the, you know, the, the speeches and weaving them into two music videos and turning him into this other being for, for a period of time. So, I don't know. I think as guys, I think these guys might've. Still been able to figure it out and still won the internet 

[00:35:31] Charlie Meyerson: [00:35:31] a little ahead of the curve. 

[00:35:32] David Mendell: [00:35:32] Yes. 

[00:35:33] Charlie Meyerson: [00:35:33] You have expressed second thoughts about your books even handed approach to Barack Obama. I can attest that that is what it delivers. 

[00:35:43] David Mendell: [00:35:43] If 

[00:35:43] Charlie Meyerson: [00:35:43] you had any of your coverage, any of the content of the book in particular to do differently in this political landscape in which we find ourselves now, would you have, would you have taken more of a stand? I mean, would you have been less 

[00:35:56] David Mendell: [00:35:56] even handed. No, no, I, [00:36:00] I, that was my job, I thought was to put, you know, my job, uh, in writing this book was to portray this person as in every way that I, that I could and in, in, in a fair manner. But also, um, you know, I didn't pull any punches, uh, in the book. And of course, with, with some hindsight as to, you know, the issues he took on, I probably would have written more about his health care. Um, because that's, that's an issue that obviously he grabbed on, grabbed onto when he got to Washington. Had I known that that was going to be a signature issue in his legacy, I probably would have written a little more about what he did in the, in the state legislature, uh, regarding that. But, but as far as his character and being even, and, and, and, uh, even handed with him and, and portraying all the characters as, as I did. Uh, no, I, I, I. I would still write it the same way I, and you know, but it's, it's, we're at an era now where those, these kinds of books are, you [00:37:00] know, they're, you know, my, my book was attacked from, from the pro Obama people and from the anti Obama people. So I figure I did a pretty good job. Both sides had issues with what I wrote. Um, and these days, you know, you usually see one side or the other, you don't see as much. You know, in the middle. And so it was very hard in this atmosphere for me to be categorized is, I mean, my upper Obama guy, my anti Obama guy, there was somebody on the internet, you know, in one of good reads or somewhere who said, um, uh, who wrote, you know, meant this David Mendell, what are his politics? I can't tell after I've read this book. And I took that as a source of pride that, you know, you couldn't tell was I for this guy or against this guy? 

[00:37:45] Charlie Meyerson: [00:37:45] So president of is relatively low profile during the Trump administration and the present democratic presidential primary campaign as I think it's safe to say disappointed a lot of his fans. [00:38:00] Is it surprising to you that that's the arc that he's followed?

[00:38:07] David Mendell: [00:38:07] No, quite frankly. There's Obama's such a straight line to me and I'm one of the few people who is that. He looks at it that way. I mean, he would go up and down and polls and he would, you know, he would, people would say this and that about him. And to me, uh, he, he was very much a straight line. I think he was very consistent in policies he had. And, and quite frankly, as such, I, I didn't think he would be a change the world. President, even though he sold himself is that, and that's what disappointed a lot of people hope and change. I always saw him as more of a cautious politician. He picks and chooses his battles, and he's very willing to negotiate and make compromises with the other side. So, um, I'm really, no, he's, he, [00:39:00] you know, most presidents try to stay out of. The current president's business, they, because their voices, you know, can be seen as, as undermining, whatever the president administration is doing. When you're president, you don't want the last president running you down. So it's just sort of a courtesy that, that presidents have with one another. So it doesn't surprise me that, that he is lived up, uh, in regard to that courtesy, 

[00:39:25] Charlie Meyerson: [00:39:25] have you followed the, uh, the debate, the discussion over plans for the Obama presidential center on Chicago South side? What do you think of it? And do you have anything that you would donate to that center? 

[00:39:37] David Mendell: [00:39:37] Yeah, but I don't think you're going to find my book there. 

[00:39:40] Charlie Meyerson: [00:39:40] You're 

[00:39:40] David Mendell: [00:39:40] his first, but they didn't like my book. You know, I was the first, I was the first guy who wrote about him and, and I'm in such a straight laced. It's such a straight manner, and he's got his books to sell, and there are certainly books that are more pro Obama than mine, where mine wasn't negative, but I fit. Uh, probably the [00:40:00] big thing is Michelle didn't care for it because, uh, uh, you know, I wrote about their marriage. I was, I wrote about, there was a point in the book, which I wrote. That, uh, I thought I was interviewing her and I said, well, what is it like to be married to a guy who's really married to his career? And, um, I mean, the first time I interviewed her, she was in this tiny little office, the university of Chicago, and she was working in the communications department. And I thought. This is a woman with a Harvard law degree. What is she doing here? You know? But she was the one who took the career hit for the, for the sake of the family. Her husband, you know, had these lofty ambitions of being a big time politician. So they had a couple of kids and somebody had to stay home with the kids and make sure that, you know, she was the rock at home as he said, but. She was, you know, after talking with her for 10 minutes, you could tell, okay, this woman is every bit as smart as he is, and she's a little more engaging because she doesn't seem to have an agenda. She's just very down to [00:41:00] earth, very, and, and had a very warm personality. And so, uh, I, you know, I, I wrote that, you know, you took the career hit here. Um, what's it like for. Uh, you know, to, to be married to someone who is just, you know, his career is the biggest thing in his life. And she said that, well, that's what, that's what it's like for all men. You know, all men have career and God are in there and family is in there, but their careers first. And I said, that's just not the case. I said, there are some men who, who. Who take, you know, who take a career hit for the sake of their family. And, uh, I don't think she cared for me analyzing their relationship in that, in that manner. And, uh, so the word, the word got to me that she didn't care for the book. And I don't think that that's going to. Get me into the Obama foundation library anytime soon. So 

[00:41:57] Charlie Meyerson: [00:41:57] any advice for reporters who are now covering [00:42:00] the thousands of candidates for the 2020 presidential nomination? Uh, it's a, 

[00:42:08] David Mendell: [00:42:08] it's a totally different environment now. I mean, there's no way that. For probably a guy running for that high, an office of Senate that, you know, there would have been, I mean, my deadline was every 24 hours. It wasn't every day. 15 minutes like it is now. Um, you know, can't, he would give a speech and I would, you know, take it down and yeah, I would write it for the Tribune. It would go in the paper the next day. And so there was a lot of downtime that we hadn't, I wasn't constantly writing every little thing that, that the candidate would say. Um, so I think reporters have a much more difficult, uh. No job now than they used to. They, they, when you're constantly on deadline and every [00:43:00] little thing is going to go out to the universe and possibly turn into something, uh, you, there's a lot of pressure not to you. I don't think you can, the detachment that, uh, you have to have even more detachment now and you're not going to be as close to the, the, I think there's going to be a more of an arm's length from, from. The folks you're covering than, than ever. It used to be. There was a little, you know, we got, I mean, I got to know Obama extremely well. I don't think anybody covering a certain candidate is really going to get that kind of access, uh, anymore know that the Tribune doesn't put one on one. It doesn't have somebody rolling around with candidates anymore. There's just not the, now they're not the resources and it's just a different, different environment now. 

[00:43:46] Charlie Meyerson: [00:43:46] And now it's time for questions from the audience. How would you describe your relationship now with Barack Obama? One audience member asked in advance of this session, 

[00:43:55] David Mendell: [00:43:55] we have no relationship. 

[00:43:58] Charlie Meyerson: [00:43:58] When's the last time you talked to him? 

[00:44:00] [00:44:00] David Mendell: [00:44:00] Last time I talked to Obama was the last interview for the book, which was 2007. Something like that. I mean, I've talked to the AIDS, I've talked to his AIDS, but he, you know, he was running for president. He was a little busy and I wasn't. And then he became president and he was a little busy. Uh, so, uh, I wasn't, you know, I, I was the past, you know, he, he, he dealt with me. I didn't, I didn't go off to Washington and continue to cover him, and we didn't continue to interact. So there was, there's been, you know, our relationship is. Non-existent. 

[00:44:39] Charlie Meyerson: [00:44:39] Do you have any insight as to whether eventually president Obama made the kind of connections that he initially had trouble making with African American men in particular on Chicago's West and South sides? 

[00:44:55] David Mendell: [00:44:55] Yeah, that was something that was really fascinating to watch because Obama was black, [00:45:00] but he didn't grow up. In an African American environment. So he, the audience that he had the most, probably the most difficulty with were African American, African Americans and African American males in particular. He didn't always, I think he felt like he didn't have the street cred. Uh, I think he probably does now because he's, he rep, he's represented them and he became their, their, uh. Demi God for, for a long time. Um, but for awhile he  he would, he wasn't as comfortable with people as he, as he learned to be in one on one situations. He would slap, you know, a black guy in the back, say, Hey brother, how's it gone? And it was just a little too much. It was like a white guy from Harvard trying to be down, you know, and, and, and, uh, you know, I would be taking notes about all that, but he, uh, he, he then, he. You know, Michelle, Michelle's world, [00:46:00] uh, was, uh, was sort of the uppercrust elite African American community in Chicago. So he had, he had, he did struggle to connect, I think, with, with some, uh, black males, uh, of less intellectual. Yeah. Or less. Less educational ability. Not ability, but less education. So is he, but he had trouble connecting sometimes with anybody who was a common person. He was, you know, he was Harvard and he, you know, as David Axelrod said, he became a much better candidate when he stopped thinking that every debate in every public appearance he had was, was even taking orals at Harvard. He went in and tried to show everybody how smart he was, and that isn't going to, when you vote. And, uh, showing everybody, you know, you, you want to connect with people at their level. And he, but he was at such a quick study. He picked up on that and you know, by, by the time he was running for president, that was, that was nonexistent anymore. 

[00:46:58] Charlie Meyerson: [00:46:58] If you could write a book [00:47:00] about another U S politician living or dead, who would you choose about whom would you choose to write 

[00:47:07] David Mendell: [00:47:07] living or dead? Well, there've been so many books written about the dead. Um, I know who, who, um, I, you know, want to, who, who in the democratic fold would be fun, fascinating person. Buddha judge would be, if he comes out of this would be. Extraordinary, extraordinarily interesting guy to, to write about, uh, a gay mayor in South bend, Indiana. Just that, that world in and of itself, how he manages that world and how it's, how it, it shows how we've changed is the society, I think he would be a great guy to write in. His life is still evolving. Uh, it's not, you know, it's not done. And, you know, I think it'd be very hard if you're writing about somebody who's dead and. Um, uh, 

[00:47:56] Charlie Meyerson: [00:47:56] at one point as responsive to questions. 

[00:47:58] David Mendell: [00:47:58] They're [00:48:00] not at all. And I, and, and I'm a reporter at heart. I'm not a, um, um, an observer. And that was what I think was what I tried to bring to this project with this book was that I was there seeing all this, and that's what the strength of the book is. At some point, I wrote a piece for the new Yorker and I was talking with David Remnick who wound up writing his own Obama book. And I said. You know, my editor at the beginning did not want me to write this first person. And so we kind of fought about it. I said, he said, it's kind of jarring that you keep appearing. And I said, well, look, this is like, you know, Tuesdays with Barak, you know, um, uh, this is what I bring to the story. And, uh, I think that I, you know, I think I have to write it in that way. And, um. Remnick said, you are correct in writing it in that way. And it was, uh, you know, he's a guy that knows the editor, the new Yorker, written about dozen books. He knows a little bit about writing, so 

[00:48:57] Charlie Meyerson: [00:48:57] my opinion doesn't carry anywhere near as much [00:49:00] weight, but I agree. This isn't exactly a question, but it did come in from someone who submitted in advance. Let me know what you think. This is in response to the New York times headline, Obama says, average American doesn't want to tear down system. The comment. Was Barry. I love you, man. Like for real. You were the man for the time and you rocked it, 

[00:49:24] David Mendell: [00:49:24] but you are wrong. 

[00:49:26] Charlie Meyerson: [00:49:26] We loved your centrism in a post Bush era, but now we want more. I don't like the Progressive's who deride you, but we want more, much, much more. Thanks though for being a very respectable president. 

[00:49:40] David Mendell: [00:49:40] Comments. It's sort of a left handed compliment to him. Right. Um, well, he may not, you know, if he were in this election cycle, he may not be the guy. Uh, and if he, if he is the guy, he would probably have to tilt a little bit. To the left farther than he was. I mean, he, but if you remember, he was the, he was to [00:50:00] the left of Hillary or perceived to be, to the left of Hillary. Um, uh, he's just a very cautious guy. And, and w what I think is that he wants, he's, he's afraid that the next Democrat will, will put up somebody who isn't palpable to or isn't, uh, uh, can't, can't. The middle America won't vote for. Um, I think he's afraid to lose. Elizabeth Warren won't be, you know, uh, th th that 10% in the middle that she could shock them. Uh, some of her plans, and there's a little bit too much socialism involved, and so, you know, he's a politician and poly. Once politicians getting office, one thing they learn is that it's hard to win. You have to, you know, you have to go through a lot to win. And once you get in there, then it's hard to, it's hard to govern, but first you have to win and you have to be the right person, the right candidate at the right time. And so, Paula, they tend to be very cautious. [00:51:00] And when it comes to, uh, taking a stand, that doesn't surprise. I mean, he's a guy who believes, you know, you got to win first. You got to win the game first before you can play in the game. And I, you know,  or. He's, you know, that was, he made that comment because he's, he wants either Deval Patrick or Joe Biden to win. They're his buddies. It, it could be that there could be something behind the scenes, but I just think he's worried that the Democrats will put up somebody too far to the left, to the end, and wind up somehow losing to, to Trump. And next year, uh, 

[00:51:36] Charlie Meyerson: [00:51:36] you moved to Oak park in the year 2000. Around the time you met Obama. It's tradition in these sessions for me to ask this of our guests. Why Oak park? 

[00:51:47] David Mendell: [00:51:47] Yeah. Uh, I was getting married to my first wife. My first wife was African American, and this is Chicago, and you're looking for a place where you know, you'll be accepted. [00:52:00] There won't be. Uh, issues when, if you have biracial children that you know, where it's racially tolerant, um, and you know, you, you're going to have a family. So we're moving to the suburbs. So a lot of interracial couples wind up either in Oak park or Evanston. Um, it's a, you know, uh, you know, that's a whole nother part of my life. It's, it's interesting. You know, as a white male usually don't have to make those kinds of choices. Their neighborhoods, you certainly don't want to live in that. You, you don't care that you're excluded from certain neighborhoods. But there are certain places around Chicago that, you know, you want to feel comfort that the people around you are, um, you know, not non-judging accepting of who you are, that you're, you know, your, your, what, you won't send your biracial child to school and have them come home with feeling, uh. Out of place. So that for, that's the reason I wound up in [00:53:00] Oak park. 

[00:53:00] Charlie Meyerson: [00:53:00] David Mendell, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you audience for being here. That's journalist David Mindell, author of the first Barack Obama biography, Obama from promise to power. I'm Charlie Myerson. This has been another Chicago public square podcast more@podcastsdotchicagopublicsquare.com.